Running for Local Office and Political Campaign Website Basics with Lennie Jarratt CW 24- Transcript

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John Tsarpalas: Today on Commonwealthy, my guest will be Lennie Jarratt. Lennie’s done a lot of political activism things in his life. So this is actually going to be a two-part podcast.

Today we are going to talk about Lennie’s experience in running for office. And then Lennie made his living in the tech world and he’s built hundreds of websites, so we are also going to talk about political campaign website basics.

Then, Lennie also made his mark in the realm of education. That will be next week in Lennie Jarratt part two.

Commonwealthy #24, Running for local office and basic campaign political websites with Lennie Jarratt.

My guest today is Lennie Jarratt. Lennie has got a variety of things in his background that we could talk about. When I first met Lennie, he was my tech guy, but definitely a political activist at the same time. He would work tech by day and tech by night. Any other free time that wasn’t family, he was out being an activist and trying to change the world.

Lennie Jarratt: Yup, I was.

John Tsarpalas: And Lennie has run for office. You ran for state senate back in 2012 in the primary. I knew you well then. You are so much more “wise” as to the ways of campaigning after that.

Lennie Jarratt: Yes, I learned a lot in that campaign.

John Tsarpalas: You are also sort of a resident Illinois expert on education and school boards. So let’s start off with campaigns and your experience in campaigning. We’ll build from there and see where this goes. And then we’ll jump into websites and some of the tech stuff. And then maybe we’ll talk some education issues.

Lennie Jarratt: Alright.

John Tsarpalas: Alright, 2012 for some reason you were crazed and you decided to run for state senate in Illinois, where it is very difficult to run in as a free market, limited government kind of a person.

Lennie Jarratt: Yes, it is, especially when the Republicans already had their handpicked candidate ready to run. That was the really the reason I jumped in the race. I saw them trying to handpick the replacement of the current state senator. I decided, “No, you don’t get to just handpick. I am going to at least run and make him work for it.”

John Tsarpalas: Well, that you did! You made them work for it.

Lennie Jarratt: Yes, I did. They really had to work for it.

John Tsarpalas: So where did you start? And where should you have started?

Lennie Jarratt: Well, I started with actually just deciding to run, instead of trying to figure out what support I had or where I could raise money and stuff first. I should have thought more about that.

John Tsarpalas: So starting with that list of who you know, who knows who, and who can possibly donate.

Lennie Jarratt: Right. And I didn’t start that way.

John Tsarpalas: Okay. So if people really have time, I recommend people literally start building their name in a community. They need to get out to Lions Clubs, Rotary’s, and Chamber of Commerce’s and be members and join. They need to get people to know and start making lists. Build that Rolodex, which no one has anymore.

Lennie Jarratt: Right. And that was my issue. I had done so much activism. A lot of people knew my name, but I had always stayed in the background. I never actually promoted myself or promoted my name out there quite as much as I should have.

John Tsarpalas: Right. You were known amongst activists.

Lennie Jarratt: Yeah, I was known among the activists and I was known among a lot of the school boards and stuff as the rabble rouser. So I had both a good and bad connotation with my name to start with. The papers already had a preconceived notion who I was and what I was doing and stuff as well.

Some of that I could have alleviated if I had started earlier thinking about running and actually built that list and going to the meetings. I hated going to political meetings. I just hated going to them. I hated being around other politicians.

I didn’t like that atmosphere because it was all about schmoozing people and talking to people. But it really isn’t as bad as you think it is going to be when you first start. It is really just having a conversation with people, but getting to know the right people, the people who are already in power and actually letting them know who you really are.

When you come out of nowhere, they really don’t know what to think of you. Since I had been an activist, they all had preconceived notions of who I was before I ever started.

John Tsarpalas: Yeah, it works for you and it works against you. It gets you some volunteers and people that are motivated by you, but there is also, as you said, preconceived notions to overcome.

Lennie Jarratt: It really helped me get on the ballot. The only reason I got on the ballot was because other activists knew who I was and they came out and helped me get signatures and stuff. We cranked out over a hundred signatures a day. We had 2,300 signatures in twenty days. That’s what got me on the ballot because I started so late.

John Tsarpalas: That’s great, though. Okay, so there’s another thing- starting earlier.

Lennie Jarratt: Yes.

John Tsarpalas: If you had had more time, how would that have changed things?

Lennie Jarratt: I think it would have changed the strategy of me going in. I came in so late. I focused on just getting on the ballot. I didn’t focus on what I was going to say, my messaging, or building that network before I started. So that was kind of the issue.

I should have built my network first and had the people in place that I was going to be talking to and working with a lot sooner. And I should have started looking at how to do the fundraising. Because I started late, that became the afterthought. It should have been done up front.

John Tsarpalas: Right. Okay, so you jump in and are on the ballot. You’ve got people who stepped up and helped you get on it, which is great.

Lennie Jarratt: Yes.

John Tsarpalas: There’s nothing better than good volunteers, absolutely.

Lennie Jarratt: Oh, yeah. Volunteers are worth a whole lot of money. I can tell you that.

John Tsarpalas: They really are. Good. So then where did you start? What did you do then? You’ve got your petitions. Did you go to an attorney, first of all, to do the petition? Or did you just do one on your own?

Lennie Jarratt: Actually I most of it on my own. I did have a couple of people that were volunteering that had done a signature petition for a lot of other candidates. They helped me with it and helped me look through that.

I had an attorney look over everything first before I started passing the petitions to make sure they were all correct. So he gave me a couple of tips. Then I had some experienced people helping me before I turned them in.

John Tsarpalas: Okay.

Lennie Jarratt: You really have to do that because there are so many little tricks and so many ways they can kick you off the ballot if you are not careful. You have to dot every I and cross every T.

John Tsarpalas: Yes, you did. I have kicked people off the ballot. I have done to that others. It’s all fair.

Lennie Jarratt: It is. There’s lots of little tricks to actually keep yourself on the ballot, too. When you are filling out, everyone wants to fill out pages on the petition sheets. You don’t have to have a full page of signatures to turn in. You can do one or two signatures. Just creating a bigger bulk of paper makes it harder for the other candidates to want to kick you off as well.

John Tsarpalas: That’s a good concept. So, did your people for petitioning do train stations? Did they go door-to-door? Or a little bit of both?

Lennie Jarratt: Since we were short on time, we did a little bit of door-to-door, but it was mostly hitting the training stations, the local festivals, and stuff. We were here in Antioch at their winter festival and their winter parade. It was hitting the big bulk of people where you knew there was going to be a lot of registered voters.

We went to the grocery stores. My wife was great at going to the grocery store and getting signatures until they actually kicked her out.

John Tsarpalas: Yeah, I have done a lot of Walmart parking lots myself, so I do understand that. Cool. You mentioned Antioch. We are in Antioch, Illinois. We are actually sitting in my office, which happens to be in that town and Lennie happened to be running in this area, which worked out well. Lennie actually had an office in this building for his campaign, so that was kind of fun at the time, too.

Lennie Jarratt: It was.

John Tsarpalas: It was very fun. Okay, so you got your petitions. You got maybe double of what is required, so you had a margin of error.

Lennie Jarratt: Yes.

John Tsarpalas: And you got on the ballot. Then what happened? The problem here with a primary in Illinois is it is always happening during the holidays. You get on the ballot like right in the beginning of December, somewhere in there you are filing.

Lennie Jarratt: You file pretty much the Monday or Tuesday right after Thanksgiving.

John Tsarpalas: Yea. You get on. It is hard to get people motivated, but you are out working events. You are going to Christmas events. You are going to all kinds of things.

Lennie Jarratt: That’s it. You find the events. That’s the one other thing I would have liked to have had time for. I would have liked to known ahead of time what all of the events were. It would have been easier to get to all of them and schedule those. I was doing it on the fly, finding an event and showing up at an event.

The debates started a week after our petitions signatures were due. So the first debate happened. It was very rapid.

John Tsarpalas: It happened so fast because you started late.

Lennie Jarratt: Right.

John Tsarpalas: You really need to start a year in advance.

Lennie Jarratt: You do. Or more

John Tsarpalas: Or more, right. And did you have anyone in terms of volunteers that stepped up to be an event scheduler? Or was it all you and your wife?

Lennie Jarratt: It was pretty much mostly me and my wife doing that part of it. My wife was great at making phone calls and talking to candidates. When I wasn’t walking, she was making phone calls and talking to them. So it was great. The kids got involved.

John Tsarpalas: And when we say talking to candidates, we are talking to who?

Lennie Jarratt: Not candidates, but talking to people.

John Tsarpalas: Okay, voters.

Lennie Jarratt: So she was doing the voters. She was calling voters every day because she could do that from home instead of being out walking. So she was doing that. I was out walking or I was out trying to raise money and go to events as well.

John Tsarpalas: Right. And did this become a full-time job?

Lennie Jarratt: Pretty much. I would work. I rearranged my schedule. I was still a techie, so I did work at night. What I would do is I would get walking ten or eleven o’clock in the morning and walk until five o’clock, go to an event, get home at ten or eleven o’clock, and then work until two or three in the morning. I’d get up the next morning and start all over again.

It really was seven days a week. On a campaign, there is no time off.

John Tsarpalas: No. You were out knocking doors yourself, going door-to-door?

Lennie Jarratt: Yes.

John Tsarpalas: And you had a list of Republican primary voters, registered voters. And you knocked on those doors. You left a palm card? You had literature?

Lennie Jarratt: Yes, I had a palm card that I would pass out. If they were not home, I would leave them a little message, stick it in their door, and keep cranking. I was out walking in the snow. It didn’t matter what the weather was; I was out walking.

John Tsarpalas: So your wife is on the phone calling the registered voter list. You are out door knocking. You are going precinct by precinct. First of all, a state senate district is what, 200,000 people?

Lennie Jarratt: Yeah, it was 181 precincts in the districts.

John Tsarpalas: Oh, wow.

Lennie Jarratt: I prioritized. We went through based on number of voters to prioritize.

John Tsarpalas: Right. Of course it is a primary. Two hundred thousand is the general.

Lennie Jarratt: Right, it wasn’t that many for the primary. But you are still walking all the high propensity voters and prioritized it. I know myself personally, I probably walked between sixty to seventy precincts. I had volunteers that helped me walk the others.

We were out every weekend. I had volunteers out helping me every single weekend walk.

John Tsarpalas: Wow, that’s great. So you are up against sort of an establishment-supported candidate, the hand pick of the Republican organizations. So those organizations are out walking. Their organizations are organized. They have people. They have groups of volunteers, etc.

Lennie Jarratt: They do.

John Tsarpalas: So you are up against a bigger army and you are kind of the minutemen.

Lennie Jarratt: Yup, they already had all the inside roads to all the major fundraisers and donors and stuff. So they were calling all the major donors to get the money and stuff. I didn’t do bad. I raised a little over $20,000 for the campaign.

John Tsarpalas: Okay, that’s good.

Lennie Jarratt: Honestly I needed about fifty, so I didn’t get where I needed to go. I didn’t get to send out as many mailers as I really needed to. I did send out three mailers. I would have liked to have done between five and eight.

John Tsarpalas: Yeah, okay. That would have been ideal

Lennie Jarratt: And it would have helped me better with the messaging. That’s the other thing; I didn’t plan the mailers out ahead of time. When you are planning out your campaign, you should plan out when your mailers are going to go out so you know when they are designed ahead of time, ready to drop, and ready to go. That I didn’t know at the time.

And it could help with your messaging, how to stagger your messaging and how you are going to do it. Starting late allowed my opponent to send out some mailers to define me before I had a chance to define myself, which is a problem.

John Tsarpalas: Yeah, that is a problem. To do over again, what would you have done differently? Start earlier?

Lennie Jarratt: Start earlier, start raising funds earlier, and start to plan earlier. I would get the plan down- which precincts you are going to walk, when your mailers are going to go out, what you are going to do, and whether you are actually going to do radio or all digital advertising.

With what I’ve learned, I actually now prefer a more heavy digital campaign rather than a radio/TV, based on the area. You really have to know the area for that. Lake County, the way this area is set up, digital would have been much, much better.

John Tsarpalas: Let’s define digital. Are you talking about Facebook ads? What are you talking about?

Lennie Jarratt: I am talking about all kinds of digital- Facebook, Twitter, any time of social media, getting into LinkedIn, actually getting onto local websites. This would have been all the conservative websites that people visit in this area.

Right now the technology is so good, they can do it based on area. So if I say I want all conservatives Republican websites, if someone goes to Drudge Report and they live in this district, they would have gotten my ad. And then they would have repeatedly gotten my ad multiple times. It would have built my name recognition much faster than you could do with the expense of radio or TV.

You don’t want to do just Facebook. You don’t want to do just a website. You want to do a real digital media campaign.

John Tsarpalas: Alright. So would you have still mailed?

Lennie Jarratt: Yes, I still would have mailed. People still like getting mail. And there is an age group that is not on the Internet as much, so you still have to mail them.

John Tsarpalas: A lot of the so-called “civic minded people” are a little older and they are just not as techie.

Lennie Jarratt: Yeah, although one of the fastest growing Facebook age groups is fifty-five plus. But there still are a lot of voters that don’t get on Facebook.

John Tsarpalas: Okay. Was the door-to-door worthwhile?

Lennie Jarratt: Yes.

John Tsarpalas: Was phone calling worthwhile?

Lennie Jarratt: Phone calling was worthwhile. Phone calling is getting harder and harder because people are tired of the phone calls.

John Tsarpalas: It is.

Lennie Jarratt: But the door-to-door still really works. And honestly, if you are out walking in bad weather, you get a really good response because people thank you for actually showing up and being out there walking no matter what the weather is.

John Tsarpalas: Yeah. You mentioned your kids got involved. Tell me about how this affected family. Good, bad, or a little bit of both? It takes time from them.

Lennie Jarratt: It’s a little bit of both. Since I had already been doing activism stuff, my kids-

John Tsarpalas: They were used you being out and crazy!

Lennie Jarratt: Yeah, they were used to me already doing that. When I first started it, they didn’t really like it as much because I was gone a lot. But then they started going to the meetings with me. They loved to actually go help me with events and pass out literature. They didn’t like going walking as much, but they did that every weekend.

They really didn’t want to get on the phone. If they could help with mailers or stuff envelopes and stuff, they loved doing that and helping prepare. They loved putting up signs, too. That was one thing they really liked to do.

John Tsarpalas: Well, good. So they were a part of it. It was an experience. They learned from it.

Lennie Jarratt: Yup.

John Tsarpalas: You learned. Everyone learned from it.

Lennie Jarratt: Yes.

John Tsarpalas: Hopefully people listening to this are going to learn from it.

Lennie Jarratt: Hopefully!

John Tsarpalas: Okay, so now let’s jump to the tech world because that’s one of your many areas of expertise. That’s where I first met you.

Lennie Jarratt: Right.

John Tsarpalas: Let’s talk about campaign website basic. Start where? WordPress?

Lennie Jarratt: The simple ones, depending on your campaign, go to You can set up a website and start off for basically for free. If you want your own domain name, the cost with WordPress is twenty bucks. So you are up and running with a website.

The key things you want on a website are, who you are and what you are running for, which is key. You never want to leave that out. Then you want an about section. Talk about yourself. Talk about your family. People like to get connected with you.

Have a page where people can connect with you on social media- Facebook, Twitter- and how they can connect with you. That’s one of the key things. When you have other volunteers, having them be able to share your message very easily and rapidly is going to help you more than anything else. You want to engage the people coming to look for you. That’s really it.

Have a place for donations. You can do that for free with PayPal. It costs you a little bit more with PayPal because of the fees they take out, but it’s free. For the small campaigns, it’s the simplest and easiest way to go. It’s so simple to put on WordPress. There’s a plugin for PayPal that you plugin now. So it’s very, very simple to set that up.

John Tsarpalas: Let’s talk a little bit more nuts and bolts. You go to What’s Is that where they host?

Lennie Jarratt: is where they host believe. I always get these backwards.

John Tsarpalas: I do, too.

Lennie Jarratt: I believe is where they host the website for you., you can actually download WordPress and load it onto whatever hosting server and service you want it on and build and do it yourself.

John Tsarpalas: Okay. But then in your URL, does it always have

Lennie Jarratt: It does unless you buy your own domain. WordPress has that set up now if you want to buy your own domain, its twenty bucks a year. You buy your own domain and it gets rid of the part. It’s just your or whatever you want.

John Tsarpalas: Alright. Then you find a theme and put that in there. That gives you your look.

Lennie Jarratt: Right.

John Tsarpalas: There’s free themes.

Lennie Jarratt: There’s so many free themes.

John Tsarpalas: Actually is on a free theme and I really love it. It think it looks great.

Lennie Jarratt: You almost don’t have to build a theme anymore because there are so many free ones out there that look really nice.

John Tsarpalas: Right. And then you should come up, and we’ve talked about this in an earlier podcast (episode #5, Campaign Palm Cards, where we talked about design basics and making sure that your website and all your literature and everything had the same look and design and flow), with a logo and design.

Find someone who can design you a decent logo. It’s usually pretty inexpensive. There’s got to be a friend around there. There’s 99designs. There are places to go and do it inexpensive.

Lennie Jarratt: Yeah, make a nice little logo that you can use on all of your literature. The consistency matters in a campaign.

John Tsarpalas: Correct. Okay, cool. You mentioned having an about page. That’s got your bio on it and some thoughts there. You are going to have a page that is perhaps for your policy, white papers, issues. So there is a tab there. You’ve got some issues posted.

You can have a little calendar showing where you are going to be at and what events, that kind of a thing. It’s nice to have a photo gallery. Have pictures of you, your volunteers, and events you’ve been to.

Lennie Jarratt: Yeah, a map of the district is always key.

John Tsarpalas: That’s true. People never know if they are in or out of the district, especially here in Illinois because they are so gerrymandered and so crazy.

Lennie Jarratt: Especially 2012 was right after the remap so everybody was in a different district.

John Tsarpalas: Everything had just changed. You are right about that. So that’s a good thought as well, to get that up there. And then you want to have a Facebook page for your campaign. Have links on your website for Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn. You kind of hit the three big ones.

Lennie Jarratt: Pintrest is actually another really good social media to get on. And Tumblr is another really good one now.

John Tsarpalas: Okay, I don’t know anything about Tumblr. What does Tumblr do?

Lennie Jarratt: It’s a lot of pictures. It’s kind of a blogging site, but it’s got a lot of good information. It’s easy to use. A lot of the younger crowd is starting to use Tumblr and Twitter now more than they are Facebook. The millennials are moving away from Facebook to Twitter and Tumblr and Snapchat and some of the others.

John Tsarpalas: Okay. Your website is a good place to keep people informed and to put up what’s kind of happening in your campaign.

Lennie Jarratt: Yes, keep your press releases there. Have a section for that. If you want to have any time you are mentioned in the news, link back to those articles. Have those kind of things on your website.

The key to what you are doing with your website is you want as much information on there as you can get that’s actually still using your name. So when people are searching for that race, they are going to find you instead of your opponent. That’s what you are doing with your website.

John Tsarpalas: And what will happen, you will find is the last people will be Googling you because they hear about the race and they don’t know your positions. All of the sudden your website is going to get quite a few hits just before the election.

Lennie Jarratt: Yes, most websites I’ve looked at, the traffic starts picking up about two weeks out. At about one week out, it gets more. Seventy-two hours before the election, that’s when everybody is looking. There is a real void of people looking more than three days before an election.

I actually consider it a problem that more people aren’t actively looking. But that’s why when you are putting stuff on your website, always talk about what district you are running in so the search engines bring them to you.

John Tsarpalas: Right. And then whenever you are out on the stump speech circuit, you are just at the end referring people to your website, whatever that name is. The URL should either be your name or the name your campaign is registered with the state under. What were you called? Were you Citizens For?

Lennie Jarratt: Yeah, I did The website is still alive. Actually, there are still some of my issues that I ran on in 2012 posted there.

John Tsarpalas: Good, people can take a look.

Lennie Jarratt: I really haven’t updated it much. Simplistic is better. Always remember when you are buying your domain, if you are going to use your domain, get the .com, the .net, and the .org. Otherwise your opponent is going to grab it and make you go UGH and kind of spoof you. We’ve seen that a lot here lately on campaigns.

John Tsarpalas: We did that to someone once. We directed them to something that we shouldn’t have.

Lennie Jarratt: I did that in my 2012 campaign.

John Tsarpalas: Yeah, don’t give your opponent a chance. Who did they do that to recently? It was some news guy. Where did that happen?

Lennie Jarratt: I know Carly Fiorina just did it to Hillary Clinton. Then another one of the candidates did the same thing to spoof their candidate as well. It’s easy to do. It’s very easy to do.

John Tsarpalas: Yeah, it’s not hard. Buy them up.

Lennie Jarratt: Yes. If you are thinking about running for office, buy your domains first before you ever announce you are running.

John Tsarpalas: Right. And if you name is a common name, Miller or Smith, then Citizens For Joe Doe.

Lennie Jarratt: Or Vote For works.

John Tsarpalas: Vote for John Doe. Buy those kind of things up.

Lennie Jarratt: It’s got to be simple. Whatever you are going to repeat on the stump, you want it simple and easy to remember. It’s got to include your name. You have to include your name for the name recognition.

John Tsarpalas: Right. That is what a campaign is ninety percent about, name recognition.

Lennie Jarratt: Right. If your name is Paul and your website is Vote Paul, that doesn’t help you. There’s a lot of Paul’s out there.

John Tsarpalas: Yes, Rand, Ron, or another. How many Paul’s are there?

Lennie Jarratt: There is Paul Mitchell, Paul Miller.

John Tsarpalas: Oh, there’ Paul’s too that way, yeah.

Lennie Jarratt: I was thinking the first name. So just think about how people are going to find you and what they are going to use to search for you. That’s the key when you are doing that.

John Tsarpalas: Right, very good. Since there were two topics in today’s discussion with Lennie, I thought I should recap a couple of important points.

Number one, if you are going to run for office, start early. The earlier the better. You improve your chances of winning the earlier you start that campaign.

Also, Lennie mentioned he wished he had started fundraising sooner. A lot of candidates get into the race and they start making contacts and talking to people, but they don’t really start asking for money until they really need it, when that mailing is due.

You need to start asking for money almost immediately for a couple of reasons. You got to get used to asking. You’ve got to get used to being rejected. And you just need to get that cash flowing. It shows support and it improves your confidence in fundraising.

So start your fundraising as soon as possible. Do not delay. A trick is start with smaller donors. Starting asking for smaller sums. As you get more accustom to it and comfortable with it, you can build up to larger amounts of money that you are asking for.

Then we jumped into the tech world. Basic political campaign websites are simple. If you don’t know how to do it, hire somebody. It’s fairly inexpensive online. You can go to something like Upwork, which used to be called Elance. There are people out there from all over the world that you can hire at an inexpensive rate to put together a WordPress site.

Keep it WordPress because it’s simple. And then you can put things into the site yourself or find someone that is your webmaster as you find a good volunteer.

Keep your website simple, but a place to post things and keep people involved and informed. As Lennie said, the traffic is going to show up the last few weeks. You are not going to get a lot of traffic to your website early on in the campaign, but it will grow.

And then of course those last few weeks, the voters suddenly start thinking about the election and they want to know more about you. Your website is the perfect place for them to find you and to realize that.

So get your website up early. And then just keep adding as you go along. Every time something happens, like you go to an event, get some pictures and put them up. When you’ve got a press release, put that up. If you write a little statement or a policy paper, put that up.

Just keep growing it. And it will grow. It’s the base for you to operate off of. It’s the hub for your volunteers, donors, and just people who are interested like the voters to come take a look.

If you’d like to get a hold of Lennie, I know Lennie is one of the most affable, nicest guys I’ve ever met. In fact, take a look at his picture in the show notes on the website. He looks like a big, giant, friendly, smiling bear. He is a very nice man.

So if you’d like to write to him and you’ve got questions, you can write to him at Or he tweets, a lot, @LJarratt.

I hope you’ll come back next week on Commonwealthy because Lennie will be continuing his discussion with me as he switches hats to his role as an education activist. Boy, has he done a lot! You’ll be amazed at some of the things Lennie’s uncovered in local school districts in his area. Now Lennie is actually employed by a place called The Heartland Institute here in Illinois. He is the project manager for school reform.

So we’ll talk to you next week on Commonwealthy. Thank you for listening. I hope you enjoyed this. If you’ve got any questions, I am always available. You can find transcripts and show notes at for everything we do. You’ll find other articles there on activism and how to run campaigns.

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Lennie Jarratt: I prioritized. We went through based on number of voters to prioritize.

John Tsarpalas: Right. Of course it is a primary. Two hundred thousand is the general.

Lennie Jarratt: Right, it wasn’t that many for the primary. But you are still walking all the high propensity voters and prioritized it. I know myself personally, I probably walked between sixty to seventy precincts. I had volunteers that helped me walk the others.

We were out every weekend. I had volunteers out helping me every single weekend walk.

John Tsarpalas: Wow, that’s great.

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